Let's Think Digital Think Digital

A few weeks ago, I got a late night message on our team’s Slack that made me do a double-take and was - to be frank - a real shock. It was a link to a Reddit thread that was titled “Ontario Digital Service is Officially Dead.”
ODS had a simple but ambitious mission: transform Ontario’s government services and practices for the digital age. It was led by Hillary Hartley, a veteran of digital transformation efforts like 18F in the United States Federal Government, who took on the role of not just leading ODS but serving as the first Chief Digital and Data Officer for the Ontario Government.
ODS did groundbreaking work for government: New digital service standards and legislation, building user research labs, and creating really great apps and digital tools. But ODS was about more than just digital products. It was just as much about people. Passionate public servants driven by the belief that interacting with government should be easy and, in Hillary’s words, delightful.
So it came as a shock when I found out that the Ontario Digital Service was being shut down. Not with a bang, but quietly and without fanfare via an internal memo informing staff that ODS was being disbanded. There has been little public discussion on what ODS’ contribution to the Ontario government has been, nor what this decision might mean for other government digital teams or the digital government movement more broadly.
On this episode of the podcast, we tell the story of the ODS over the past 7 years, and what it means now that it has ended, from those who were there at the beginning. We hear from Hillary Hartley about leading the ODS as Ontario's first Chief Digital Officer. We also hear from Karim Bardeesy who was Director of Policy and Deputy Principal Secretary for Premiere Kathleen Wynne when ODS was first being conceptualized. Tanya Coyle, was a long time public servant in Ontario who became one of the co-founders of this new digital startup team in the heart of the Ontario government. And Honey Dacanay was part of the founding team of ODS when it was still what we sometimes call in the tech world a “two-pizza team”.
Related Links
Ontario Digital Service is officially dead (Reddit)Ontario government disbands remnants of Ontario Digital Service by David Reevely, The LogicFirst blogpost by the team that set-up ODSByte-Sized Progress: Assessing Digital Transformation in the Government of Canada, The DaisOntario Digital Service
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-nZ3G14zyU
Chapters
00:04 Introduction
03:11 Hillary Hartley joins the ODS
04:33 The role of political leadership
11:50 Accomplishments of the ODS
21:11 What does the disbanding mean?
28:14 Hillary reflects on the end of ODS
34:22 Conclusion

It's only been a year since our last episode on artificial intelligence, but already a lot has changed. It seems like Generative AI is everywhere and everyone, including governments, are struggling to keep up. So on this episode Ryan is joined by a special co-host Jen Schellinck, Think Digital Associate and our resident expert on AI and cognitive science to talk about what you need to know when it comes to AI. We're also joined by Paul Craig, the creator of the TaxGPT AI bot, and Shan Gu, Founder and CEO of Foci Solutions. Both Paul and Shan share their experience working with AI projects in and around the public sector and discuss their insights on what they have learned.
In our conversation we talk about the current state of AI technology, the questions that governments should be asking when thinking about using AI, and most importantly the question on everyone's mind, who is more intelligent: ChatGPT or Ryan's cat?
(Note: At 3:26, Jen refers to a steady state model. She meant to say state space model)
Related Links
Episode 8: Government in the Era of ChatGPTTaxGPTTowards a Considered Use of AI Technologies in Government by The Institute on Governance and Think Digital
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B685AEvbbcI
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:27 The Current State of the Art for Generative AI
06:15 AI's Expansion: Beyond Text to Visuals and More
10:27 Generative AI in Government: Policies and Adaptation
18:04 Paul Craig and TaxGPT
24:44 Learnings from Running TaxGPT
38:04 Shan Gu and Adopting AI tech in government
45:42 The Future of AI in Government: Opportunities and Challenges
52:21 Is ChatGPT more intelligent than Ryan's cat?
01:08:02 Conclusion

If you haven’t heard of FWD50, you should! It’s one of the premiere conferences on digital modernization in government and exists to help answer one vital question: How do we use technology to make society better for all? Many of this season’s podcast conversations were recorded on location at the conference in Ottawa last November.
On this episode of Let’s Think Digital you are going to get an opportunity to hear directly from some of the participants in last year’s conference. We had set-up a Speakers’ Corner booth where we invited anyone at FWD50 who wanted to share their views on what their hope for the future of digital government is and what they think is stopping us from getting there.
We kick-off this episode with a wonderful conversation with two of the key founders and organizers of FWD50, Alistair Croll and Rebecca Croll. They talk about what it's like to organize the conference, highlights from the 2023 event, and give us a sneak peek of what they have in store for the 2024 edition and why you should go.
Make sure to fill out the 2024 FWD50 content survey and help shape the agenda!
Learn more about FWD50 at: https://www.fwd50.com
Finally a big thanks to Amy Kirtay, Andy Best, Amanda Bernardo, Liz Christie, Charles Finley, Dea De Jarisco, Roy Nader, Derek Alton, Urooj Qureshi, Pascale Elvas, James Duncan, Jeff Outram, and Lewis Eisen for appearing on the podcast as part of our Speakers' Corner segment!
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHlB3ujyh6E
Chapters
00:04 Introduction
01:27 Alistair Croll and Rebecca Croll
30:50 Who are you and why are you at FWD50?
33:23 What is your vision for government in 2030?
36:55 What are the barriers to get there?
40:58 Conclusion

It’s fair to say that most governments don’t choose to use open source by default. Despite efforts over the past two decades to make open source solutions a viable, or even default solution in government, there's still a lot of skepticism. Those in decision making positions often raise concerns around security and reliability compared to proprietary software that is viewed as being “safe” even if it is more expensive and less flexible in many cases.
So what should an open source government look like? And why would we want one?
To answer these questions, we are joined by Aaron Snow, Faculty Fellow, and former Acting Executive Director for the Georgetown University Beeck Center for Social Impact and Innovation in Washington DC. Prior to his work at the Beeck Center, Aaron was a US Presidential Innovation Fellow and was subsequently one of the co-founders, and then later Executive Director of 18F, the US government’s in-house technology and design consultancy. In 2018 he moved north of the border and became the first CEO of the Government of Canada’s Canadian Digital Service. And has twice been named one of the “World’s 100 Most Influential People in Digital Government" by Apolitical.
In our conversation, we talk about why our current approach to technology actually makes government less transparent, and how open source in government might be a moral imperative. If government is creating or procuring software using taxpayer’s money--something that has been in the news with the investigation into the ArriveCan app in Canada--shouldn't government have a requirement to share that code back with the public since it is the public who “owns” it? And how do we ensure that leaders in government know enough about technology to make good decisions about how it is used?
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZJEuTgFK6M
Related Links
Digital Service NetworkAaron Snow's WebsiteGeorgetown University Beeck Center for Social Innovation and ImpactAuditor-General to report Monday on how cost of ArriveCan app grew from $80,000 to more than $54-million (Globe and Mail)
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
04:41 Interview with Aaron Snow
06:13 The Security Aspect of Open Source
07:46 The Unrealized Promise of Open Source in Government
13:15 The Need for Strong Political Leadership in Digital Government
24:03 Modular, Reusable Components in Government
32:03 Conclusion

We want government to be innovative and not be left behind in the digital revolution. But this comes up against the reality of the structures, incentives, and culture of most public sector organizations that resist change. As a result, and as we’ve been talking about on this podcast, our efforts to push forward digital transformation and modernize the business of government seems to be stuck in the mud as of late. So for the dedicated community of those in and adjacent to the public service who believe in the potential of doing things in a different way, it can at times feel a bit lonely.
As someone who has worked both in the political system and the public service, I know how important clear political leadership is to support these efforts. The good news is that there are those in positions of power and influence who also believe in this vision of modern government.
Our guest this week is one of them.
Senator Colin Deacon is an independent Senator for Nova Scotia, appointed in June 2018. He’s made Digital Government one of his focus areas in the Senate and is one of the founders and co-chairs of the Caucus Group on Emerging Technology, a multi-party initiative to help Parliamentarians better understand how technology is impacting policy issues. He is a strong advocate for working across party-lines, and with entrepreneurs, researchers and social innovators to build a more innovative digital economy in Canada.
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZGr0lZ0asY
Related Links
About the Diia App in Ukraine (Wikipedia)Parliamentary Budget Office Report: Overview of the Government’s Digital Service TransformationParliamentary Caucus on Emerging TechnologySenator Colin Deacon's Website
Chapters
00:05 Introduction
03:06 Interview with Senator Colin Deacon
05:23 The Challenges of Implementing Digital Changes in Government
10:41 The Need for Modernizing Government Operations
23:40 International Examples of Digital Transformation: Ukraine
25:35 The Importance of Leadership in Digital Transformation
25:52 Rethinking Procurement for Digital Solutions
35:15 The Emerging Technology Caucus Group
41:02 Closing Remarks

As digital technologies become increasingly embedded in the fabric of the built environment, there are real questions about whether our cities, where 8 out of 10 North Americans live, are truly ready to be digital or smart cities. Do we have the right levels of transparency for citizens to know what data is being collected, how, and for what purpose? And are governments ready to use data and technology to improve and modernize our public institutions?
This week, we talk to two amazing guests about these questions.
First up is Jacqueline Lu. She is the President and Co-Founder of Helpful Places, a social impact enterprise that is working to ensure that places we live and work in, and the technologies within them, are helpful and empowering for people and their communities. In this segment, we talk to Jacqueline about her contention that, with all of the digital technologies we are surrounded by, we are already living inside a computer. We also get into Helpful Place's project called the Digital Trust for Places & Routines standard, which is meant to increase the transparency, legibility and accountability of digital technology in the built environment.
Our second conversation is with John Houweling. John is the Director of Data, Analytics and Visualization for York Region in the Greater Toronto Area. John shares his insights from a fascinating career focused on data both in the public and private sectors and his his insights on the importance of data to fuel the digital revolution. We also talk about the digital maturity model that Think Digital has developed with York Region that help public sector organizations better understand what they need to do to make sure they have the capacity to operate effectively in a modern digital world.
Watch on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNuJ_1kx_jY
Related Links
Blog Post: Think Digital Digital Maturity Assessment ModelHelpful PlacesDigital Trust for Places and Routines StandardYork Region "Putting Data to Work"
Chapters
00:04 Introduction
03:09 Interview with Jacqueline Lu
04:57 The Impact of Digital Technology on Public Spaces
07:38 The Role of Trust in Technology Adoption
12:57 The Digital Trust for Places and Routines Standard
16:02 The Importance of Transparency and Trust in Technology
21:34 Government Adoption of Technology is a Trust Issue
26:44 Interview with John Houweling
29:17 John's Journey and Transition into Government
33:36 Data Sharing and Collaboration
36:52 Digital Academy and Training
40:24 Digital Maturity and Benchmarking
44:38 Adopting Digital Standards
48:37 Conclusion and Final Thoughts from Ryan